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Old 04-03-2012, 11:08 AM   #176 (permalink)
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Doug,
It is good to hear from you. Boots on the ground are great and we all need to be involved, but your local clubs can't afford long drawn out lawsuits like the state or national organization.
Everyone that is looking for answers, IMO monies and funding to support legal actions are and will be the answer in the long run.
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Old 04-03-2012, 11:20 AM   #177 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kf6zpl View Post

The Center for Sierra Nevada Conservancy filed lawsuit against the Forest Service requesting closure of virtually everything in the Eldoredo based on adverse impacts to frogs, water, meadows, and wetlands.

BRC and Cal4 filed as intervenors. This is well known to all that bother to keep up with information put out by BRC and Cal4Wheel. Sorry, those organizations do not make house calls to ensure everyone receives the information. (Yes, I am being condescending and sarcastic.)

After a court hearing, Judge Karlton denied the basic claims and ordered boths side to enter into settlement discussions to resolve the remaining issues.

At this point, Dept of Justice and BRC went behind closed doors to negotiate with Center for Sierra Nevada Conservancy.

I provided sufficient GIS data which dropped the frog issue from further discussion.

Don Amador, Jim and I provided enough data to remove a large number of routs from further discussion.

At the end, it came down to about 40 routes that were at issue. Thanks to Bebe, Rick and a few others, sufficient data was provided to bring it down to the 40 number and have a good rational why those 40 routes should remain open.

That is where settlement talks broke down with the enviro's wanting a full and immediate closure of those and many more rites.

The DOJ lawyers balked and everything went back to Judge Karlton's court.

To his credit, the judge threw out all but the 40 routes and ordered the FS to come back with a plan dealing with the identified routes that crossed meadows or impacted water.

So, that is where we are at this point. The FS has to return to court with a plan.
Driving a Jeep through a river crossing does not impact water. It's their perception, not a fact....because they have no facts. Entrances and exits can be maintained, are maintained and are in excellent condition.
These routes are not new projects. They are not subject to NEPA or CEQA.
Deer Valley was designated with the second round of the Wilderness act. It is already a designated route. Again, not subject to NEPA or CEQA.

So did the Judge order these routes closed? Or did the FS make a decision to close them Arbitrarily?
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Old 04-03-2012, 11:22 AM   #178 (permalink)
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The last time I renewed my Cal4 membership I did it over the phone, and asked why I stopped recieving InGear..... I was told that InGear was no longer published, and only the emails were sent out. Was I lied to?
I doubt you were lied to, just a miss understanding.
Plus forgive the question, but are you think of the BRC mag 'The Voice'. BRC went paperless sometime ago, Cal4Wheel has not, from the mouth of a Cal4Wheel past president Don S., we can blame that on the gray hairs.
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Old 04-03-2012, 11:35 AM   #179 (permalink)
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The last time I renewed my Cal4 membership I did it over the phone, and asked why I stopped recieving InGear..... I was told that InGear was no longer published, and only the emails were sent out. Was I lied to?
Brian,

I cant comment on what you were told or heard, I physically was not on the phone or part of the conversation.

I suggest you call Suzy Johnson or Bonnie Steel, Suzy is in charge of the In Gear and Bonnie is the Office Manger for Cal4, They will gladly answer any of your questions.

You can email them as well,

Suzy email address is editor@ingear4x4.com
Bonnies email address is ca4wdc@cal4wheel.com

or call Bonnie at 916-381-8300
or call Suzy at 805-550-2804 (suzy is in tx.) btw

This information is posted on page 3 of the In Gear.


O and for the record, I physically saw about 3000(just a guess on the numbers) copy's of the ingear sitting in the Cal 4 wheel Office last week.
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Old 04-03-2012, 11:54 AM   #180 (permalink)
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Fwiw, I'm a ca4wd member and I stopped getting ingear after my last renewal. I thought they stopped it because of funding


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Old 04-03-2012, 11:57 AM   #181 (permalink)
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I think every ORG...BRC, Cal4wd. CORVA and significant other should post monthly to sites like Pirate with Updates of current landuse situations and the heavy fights going on. It would be a simple blanket letter with a general update. Using a "Landuse Alert Level" might also help to let folks know the hot items.

I have always said this should happen. It accomplishes many things and keeps poeple in the loop that cannot attend meetings and read reports till their eyes turn red. It can also pave a good path to new members and revenue, validating where moneies are going.
Kevin: About the first of the month, I do post a report at www.4x4voice.com

That same report is sent to Suzy for posting on Cal4s website and publishing in the InGear. That same post is distributed to the Cal4 Board for their redistribution to member clubs. That report is available for anyone that wants to access it. And, BRC sends out periodic reports available on their website and through an RSS feed.

As adults, everyone has the opportunity to view the information and they know sources to view the information.
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Old 04-03-2012, 12:00 PM   #182 (permalink)
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Kevin: About the first of the month, I do post a report at www.4x4voice.com

That same report is sent to Suzy for posting on Cal4s website and publishing in the InGear. That same post is distributed to the Cal4 Board for their redistribution to member clubs. That report is available for anyone that wants to access it. And, BRC sends out periodic reports available on their website and through an RSS feed.

As adults, everyone has the opportunity to view the information and they know sources to view the information.
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Old 04-03-2012, 12:09 PM   #183 (permalink)
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I sent an email to the members of the Lake Tahoe Hi-Lo's on Sunday, just before 3pm asking if anyone had information about this possible closure and suggested they think about a new route. Cancellation was never mentioned.
:
Ok... I heard differently. Sorry.

Welcome back Doug. I hope you stick around on here.



Regardless of who knew what....

I don't care. Water under the bridge.

What I DO care about is: What do we do now?
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Old 04-03-2012, 12:25 PM   #184 (permalink)
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Driving a Jeep through a river crossing does not impact water. It's their perception, not a fact....because they have no facts. Entrances and exits can be maintained, are maintained and are in excellent condition.
These routes are not new projects. They are not subject to NEPA or CEQA.
Deer Valley was designated with the second round of the Wilderness act. It is already a designated route. Again, not subject to NEPA or CEQA.

So did the Judge order these routes closed? Or did the FS make a decision to close them Arbitrarily?
The last court hearing was Feb 13, 2012. The judge's decision on that day ordered the FS to come back with a plan to address about 40 routes in question due to the plaintiffs filing based on meadows and water issues.

As I have said a couple of times in this thread, we (interveners in the lawsuit -- BRC, AMA D36 and Cal4) are waiting for final decision by the FS as to what their intentions are.

WORST CASE -- up to 40 routes could face temporary closure.

The most recent court hearing was after the parties involved failed to reach a settlement on actions to be taken. The DOJ lawyers held to the position they would not accept closures. Hence, the decision went back to the judge.

There were a lot of people that provided the necessary information to help the DOJ maintain their position.

And, yes, they were cautioned to not begin debating the issue in public forums as that would jeopardize the settlement discussions.

You can argue facts vs perception vs emotion for days on end WRT court decisions. It comes down to points of law and how perceptions can be construed as facts.
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Old 04-03-2012, 12:27 PM   #185 (permalink)
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To his credit, the judge threw out all but the 40 routes and ordered the FS to come ack with a plan dealing with the identified routes that crossed meadows or impacted water.

This is REALLY, REALLY freaking simple. The USFS develops plans to re-route the trails around the around the areas in question...We KNOW the Barrett re-route would be around the meadow that is skirted.

The USFS then takes that plan to the public, and requests volunteers..JUST like FOTR on the Rubicon to either A) Make the re-routes for the USFS, as per their plan or B) The trail will be closed.

I guarantee....hundreds show up to make it happen.
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Old 04-03-2012, 12:30 PM   #186 (permalink)
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Not to mention your Postings on Facebook..
My postings on Facebook are through an automatic Twitter feed from my website postings.
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Old 04-03-2012, 12:33 PM   #187 (permalink)
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This is REALLY, REALLY freaking simple. The USFS develops plans to re-route the trails around the around the areas in question...We KNOW the Barrett re-route would be around the meadow that is skirted.

The USFS then takes that plan to the public, and requests volunteers..JUST like FOTR on the Rubicon to either A) Make the re-routes for the USFS, as per their plan or B) The trail will be closed.

I guarantee....hundreds show up to make it happen.
I am sure what you say is true. Like I said, the action now rests with FS to come out with their plan.
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Old 04-03-2012, 12:34 PM   #188 (permalink)
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The last court hearing was Feb 13, 2012. The judge's decision on that day ordered the FS to come back with a plan to address about 40 routes in question due to the plaintiffs filing based on meadows and water issues.

As I have said a couple of times in this thread, we (interveners in the lawsuit -- BRC, AMA D36 and Cal4) are waiting for final decision by the FS as to what their intentions are.

WORST CASE -- up to 40 routes could face temporary closure.

The most recent court hearing was after the parties involved failed to reach a settlement on actions to be taken. The DOJ lawyers held to the position they would not accept closures. Hence, the decision went back to the judge.

There were a lot of people that provided the necessary information to help the DOJ maintain their position.

And, yes, they were cautioned to not begin debating the issue in public forums as that would jeopardize the settlement discussions.

You can argue facts vs perception vs emotion for days on end WRT court decisions. It comes down to points of law and how perceptions can be construed as facts.
So now that the settlement discussions are over we can debate.

DOJ is against closure of the routes. So you are saying that worst case scenario...Karlton orders the closures?

Then will the DOJ, BRC, AMA D36 and Cal4 sue to overturn the order?
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Old 04-03-2012, 12:35 PM   #189 (permalink)
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There is no way to re-route Deer Valley.
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Old 04-03-2012, 12:39 PM   #190 (permalink)
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Kevin: About the first of the month, I do post a report at www.4x4voice.com

That same report is sent to Suzy for posting on Cal4s website and publishing in the InGear. That same post is distributed to the Cal4 Board for their redistribution to member clubs. That report is available for anyone that wants to access it. And, BRC sends out periodic reports available on their website and through an RSS feed.

As adults, everyone has the opportunity to view the information and they know sources to view the information.
WHAT??? No silver platters???

John, Thanks for all you do!!!!
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Old 04-03-2012, 12:42 PM   #191 (permalink)
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There is no way to re-route Deer Valley.
If the "problem areas" are the two creek crossings, how difficult is it to build a freakin' log bridge over them?

The environmentalists obviously don't truly care about the environment, or else they wouldn't be wasting millions of land management dollars in court. A $5,000 bridge will solve a lot more problems than a $5,000,000 lawsuit.

The anti-access crowds paint a picture of us trashing the environment, while in reality we're the group that actually tries to solve environmental problems instead of blowing cubic dollars in courts. Those "environmentalists" are such hypocrites.
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Old 04-03-2012, 12:42 PM   #192 (permalink)
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There is no way to re-route Deer Valley.
Maybe a bridge over the water crossings, and some sort of log barrier to keep people out of the meadows (like at the meadow at the Alpine side of Slick Rock)?
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Old 04-03-2012, 12:43 PM   #193 (permalink)
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So now that the settlement discussions are over we can debate.

DOJ is against closure of the routes. So you are saying that worst case scenario...Karlton orders the closures?

Then will the DOJ, BRC, AMA D36 and Cal4 sue to overturn the order?
Final settlement is awaiting FS action. Without that action being complete, there is no decision as to following actions.

For clarity, the next step would not be "sue to overturn the order". It would be an appeal of the order.
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Old 04-03-2012, 12:43 PM   #194 (permalink)
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There is no way to re-route Deer Valley.

Because it's a Cherry Stem....designated by Congress. The very section of trail that crosses a meadow and has 2 hardened water crossings are Cherry Stemmed.
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Old 04-03-2012, 12:47 PM   #195 (permalink)
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Hmm...looks like the first creek crossing is on private property, unless ownership has changed.
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Old 04-03-2012, 12:48 PM   #196 (permalink)
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The environmentalists obviously don't truly care about the environment, or else they wouldn't be wasting millions of land management dollars in court. A $5,000 bridge will solve a lot more problems than a $5,000,000 lawsuit.

The anti-access crowds paint a picture of us trashing the environment, while in reality we're the group that actually tries to solve environmental problems instead of blowing cubic dollars in courts. Those "environmentalists" are such hypocrites.
Spot on.

They don't care about our public lands... they don't use them.
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Old 04-03-2012, 12:51 PM   #197 (permalink)
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Final settlement is awaiting FS action. Without that action being complete, there is no decision as to following actions.

For clarity, the next step would not be "sue to overturn the order". It would be an appeal of the order.
Pardon my ignorance, if the DOJ decides not to to appeal, will BRC,AMA D36 and CAL4? Will you file immediately for an injunction against the order?

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Under a decision released last week by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, private parties who intervene as defendants in a lawsuit against the United States are free to appeal an adverse ruling, even if the government acquiesces in the district courtís judgment. The Courtís decision rejected the Justice Departmentís argument for dismissal of the appeal, and held that ďthe government is not the only party who has standing to defend the validity of government regulations.Ē
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Old 04-03-2012, 01:15 PM   #198 (permalink)
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Well the 9th circuit was overturned on that one. The Sacketts can now have their day in court, and prove there are no wetlands on their property. The Supreme Court found that the EPA was violating the Administrative Procedures Act. How many times have we been screwed because we never thought of this??? How many "rulings" have we suffered in violation of the Administrative Procedures Act?
This is the strength of the Comments Project -- informing a bunch of individuals to push for improvements in the public process of driving management decisions, and to create legal opportunities for appeal. We've done that well thus far. and had several organizations tell us that "we're wasting our time, since nobody ever wins this type of appeal." The Sackett case proves otherwise, which is why I support any organization that steps up to support the kind of comments that the Comments Project has created... for Rubicon, for Travel Management, for Johnson Valley, and etc. Right now, PLP, Cal4, and CORVA are the only organizations that have really stepped up behind a lawsuit. I'd sure like to see a national organization step up to the plate...

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Old 04-03-2012, 01:16 PM   #199 (permalink)
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We ASS-U-ME that all the folks with the Forrest Service are willing to put in the Time, Money, & Reaources to keep said trails from being closed.
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Old 04-03-2012, 01:21 PM   #200 (permalink)
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This is REALLY, REALLY freaking simple. The USFS develops plans to re-route the trails around the around the areas in question...We KNOW the Barrett re-route would be around the meadow that is skirted.

The USFS then takes that plan to the public, and requests volunteers..JUST like FOTR on the Rubicon to either A) Make the re-routes for the USFS, as per their plan or B) The trail will be closed.

I guarantee....hundreds show up to make it happen.

my question is..... if we know they are going after water crossings, why don't we beat them to the punch and try and take their argument away and build some of the log bridges and stuff to start with BEFORE they have a chance to use it against us?

Why don't we go to the trails that arn't closed yet and start this process before they tell us?

the .org's have to know what game plans they are using against us.... why are we waiting for them to make the rounds and then responding? why don't we identify the issues before them and solve them so they have nothing to argue?

or is it against the rules to build a log bridge before there is a court order?
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