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Old 04-03-2012, 01:24 PM   #201 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kf6zpl View Post
The last court hearing was Feb 13, 2012. The judge's decision on that day ordered the FS to come back with a plan to address about 40 routes in question due to the plaintiffs filing based on meadows and water issues.

As I have said a couple of times in this thread, we (interveners in the lawsuit -- BRC, AMA D36 and Cal4) are waiting for final decision by the FS as to what their intentions are.

WORST CASE -- up to 40 routes could face temporary closure.

The most recent court hearing was after the parties involved failed to reach a settlement on actions to be taken. The DOJ lawyers held to the position they would not accept closures. Hence, the decision went back to the judge.

There were a lot of people that provided the necessary information to help the DOJ maintain their position.

And, yes, they were cautioned to not begin debating the issue in public forums as that would jeopardize the settlement discussions.

You can argue facts vs perception vs emotion for days on end WRT court decisions. It comes down to points of law and how perceptions can be construed as facts.
so, have we already reached the worst case? or are the trails not closed officially yet??

to me, it sounds like we reached the worst case and then the public was informed.

if its not offical yet, who is working with the FS to help them come up with a course of action now to stop the closures?
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Old 04-03-2012, 01:27 PM   #202 (permalink)
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Why don't we go to the trails that arn't closed yet and start this process before they tell us?
That's what FOTR and RTF are all about on the Rubicon trail...but it's just one, (now really important) trail.
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Old 04-03-2012, 01:27 PM   #203 (permalink)
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If the "problem areas" are the two creek crossings, how difficult is it to build a freakin' log bridge over them?

The environmentalists obviously don't truly care about the environment, or else they wouldn't be wasting millions of land management dollars in court. A $5,000 bridge will solve a lot more problems than a $5,000,000 lawsuit.

The anti-access crowds paint a picture of us trashing the environment, while in reality we're the group that actually tries to solve environmental problems instead of blowing cubic dollars in courts. Those "environmentalists" are such hypocrites.
I don't know about the other trails but the two crossing on Deer Valley are fairly wide so it would take more than log bridges.
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Old 04-03-2012, 01:47 PM   #204 (permalink)
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do you think he could be of any help, he was on the RTF board in the beginning http://www.mtdemocrat.com/news/town-...th-sen-gaines/ April 12th
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Old 04-03-2012, 01:49 PM   #205 (permalink)
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The last court hearing was Feb 13, 2012. The judge's decision on that day ordered the FS to come back with a plan to address about 40 routes in question due to the plaintiffs filing based on meadows and water issues.
...and as I understand it, USFS responded with one plan, CBD with another plan. Did OHV respond with its own suggested plan?

Quote:
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WORST CASE -- up to 40 routes could face temporary closure.
That ain't the 'worst case' -- let's add a few details. As I understand it, USFS suggests closing the trails at the meadows, and CBD suggests bouldering the routes closed at their outward access. Ain't it fair to say that bouldering routes closed (expensive) is a little more likely to be more than temporary, as funds to re-open them will be less available (since closure dollars are always easier to find than re-opening dollars)?

I fully understand that the DOJ, court, plaintiffs, defendants, and intervenors didn't want this to get out in public... well, the horse is out of the barn. Now may not be the best time to 'hush up,' especially when MEMBERS of organizations are asking EMPLOYEES/CONTRACTORS/REPRESENTATIVES of those organizations for information.

A little openness would go a long way here, IMHO. Being condescending and sarcastic won't help.

Randii

p.s. -- want to be a hero? tell us what routes you SAVED. I appreciate the work that our organizations do, but their limited communication frustrates the hell out of me.
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Don Amador, Jim (Bramham) and (John Stewart) provided enough data to remove a large number of routs from further discussion.

Last edited by randii; 04-03-2012 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 04-03-2012, 01:53 PM   #206 (permalink)
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We ASS-U-ME that all the folks with the Forrest Service are willing to put in the Time, Money, & Reaources to keep said trails from being closed.
well... that is a lot easier for them than doing an EIS on every single one of these 42 routes.

They don't want to be told by the CBD how to do thier job... I doubt the FS is happy with this.
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Old 04-03-2012, 01:56 PM   #207 (permalink)
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Hasn't there been talk about building a bridge on barrett for years now?
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Old 04-03-2012, 02:04 PM   #208 (permalink)
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Hasn't there been talk about building a bridge on barrett for years now?


The HighLanders have been raising funds, working with Civil Engineers, and the State on this for years. It's been a massive project for them that has taken the entire 4x4 community's support. I hope they can continue with their work after the dust settles.
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Old 04-03-2012, 02:06 PM   #209 (permalink)
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I don't know about the other trails but the two crossing on Deer Valley are fairly wide so it would take more than log bridges.

What about hardened crossings?

Some nice 2' boulders to drive over--that the water can flow through--and less turbidity stirred up than driving over a silty/sandy bottom?
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Old 04-03-2012, 02:13 PM   #210 (permalink)
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The Barrett Lake bridge was supposed to go in this year, now who knows?

The CA4WDC Natural Resource Consultants ( Jim Bramham and John Stewart) have been talking about this issue for quite a while, we have been waiting for the courts finding and now we have it. Its amazing how people don't listen to what they are being told, then when something happens they all scream no one told us anything and what are you doing about it.
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Old 04-03-2012, 02:22 PM   #211 (permalink)
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Its amazing how people don't listen to what they are being told, then when something happens they all scream no one told us anything and what are you doing about it.
I REALLY do not want to get into this arguement becuase IMO it takes away from what we need to do: Which is figure out WHAT we need to do...

But: I was not told about this...as were a few other "foot soliders" who are active in land-use issues.

If I DID hear about it...I would have been waving the war banner the instant I heard it. I think many people on this board can attest to that.


Again, water under the bridge.

I don't care about that... I am not going to waste my time on the "Orange County Housewives" drama. You guys focus and bitch on that...I am going to focus on figureing out what we can do.

What I do care is that we come up with a plan to save these trails.
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Old 04-03-2012, 02:25 PM   #212 (permalink)
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I may have missed it reading through this thread again and seen many asking the same questions lately, but where is the official letter or memo on these closures postes on a site? Seems none of these threads on here have it.

If they get this to officially happen now. Unfortenetly this is just the start and will soon move to the other sorounding national forests and state forests. We need to start getting things orginized to fight this on the other trails now before they come under fire.

This year more than ever it is important to bring up areas of trails that need help and look out for areas that need help, so we can get a bigger more orginized group effort to get our trails fixed.

Ive been part of many trail clean ups and work parties as an individual and with area clubs and have seen alot of good come from them. They do work.

When we know what to do to get these trails back or fight off more closures we do have the group power to do so. Its just getting it organized thats the problem.
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Old 04-03-2012, 02:28 PM   #213 (permalink)
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I may have missed it reading through this thread again and seen many asking the same questions lately, but where is the official letter or memo on these closures postes on a site? Seems none of these threads on here have it.

.
It's supposed to come out today.
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Old 04-03-2012, 02:32 PM   #214 (permalink)
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...and as I understand it, USFS responded with one plan, CBD with another plan. Did OHV respond with its own suggested plan?

Somehow I get the sneaking suspicion you already know the answer to that question.
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Old 04-03-2012, 02:33 PM   #215 (permalink)
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The Barrett Lake bridge was supposed to go in this year, now who knows?

The CA4WDC Natural Resource Consultants ( Jim Bramham and John Stewart) have been talking about this issue for quite a while, we have been waiting for the courts finding and now we have it. Its amazing how people don't listen to what they are being told, then when something happens they all scream no one told us anything and what are you doing about it.
well, we're asking what we can do about it now.... and what plans they may have? is that so wrong? i mean, i would assume that they would at least be somewhat prepared for it to go this way right? at least have a few thoughts about what to do next if it went this way right?

if they knew that this was coming down the pipeline, then they knew what the potential could be. how could anyone really think that the judge wouldn't order this closure? obviously the FS didn't have any sort of plan to address the issues that the CBD raised.... we should have helped them.

the guys that are in the know are the key..... we are a group of people willing to help with anything we can, but, we need direction, we need a task.

yeah, i know, we've been told a few times now all 100000 members should fully research the lawsuits and contact every agency about what the current issues are, because its not their job to pass the information out any farther than their own newsletters and magazines and then each one of us develop a plan and try to help.

and if the barrett lake bridge was supposed to go in, and it would have solved the issue that they closed it for in the first place now, why did it stay on the list? and now all the people who have been working thier ass off to make that bridge happen just saw all thier hard work and money go down the shitter.
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Old 04-03-2012, 02:38 PM   #216 (permalink)
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Which is figure out WHAT we need to do...
.I am going to focus on figuring out what we can do.

What I do care is that we come up with a plan to save these trails.
thats what's frustrating to me Kurt.... the people who were at the front of this issue, didn't feel the need to plan that the closure was a possibility and plan on how they would fight it?

if the guys who are in charge don't have a plan, how are we foot solider supposed to?


maybe a new thread dedicated on the solution to this issue is in order? if there is nothing that we can do for this closure, then a thread on how to prevent CBD from using this same issue on other trails in similar local forests?
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Old 04-03-2012, 02:45 PM   #217 (permalink)
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Im glad to see everyone passionate about this.
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Old 04-03-2012, 02:46 PM   #218 (permalink)
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Somehow I get the sneaking suspicion you already know the answer to that question.
ooh, ooh, pick me pick me I think I know!!!!!

Although I think you know as well. Kurt has said he does not want the OC drama, but I say if there is why not fix that too.
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Old 04-03-2012, 02:52 PM   #219 (permalink)
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The Barrett Lake bridge was supposed to go in this year, now who knows?

The CA4WDC Natural Resource Consultants ( Jim Bramham and John Stewart) have been talking about this issue for quite a while, we have been waiting for the courts finding and now we have it. Its amazing how people don't listen to what they are being told, then when something happens they all scream no one told us anything and what are you doing about it.
They scream because they need to know that these folks are out there Kickin butt and takin names. I want to know that!!! I have listened to what I have been told and I have found it remarkably wanting in details. SO, I went out on my own and made some calls and found some answers. Then, funny, this news breaks hours after I made the calls.

Whatever. the people need to know and if they do not, support will wane. Timing is soooo important. It is everything that stands between being a hero and a zero. Get it right and you are good. Wrong and well, you know.......
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Old 04-03-2012, 02:54 PM   #220 (permalink)
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Here is the email I got from Lester of ElDo NF this morning:

At this time, it is likely that a number of 4WD trails and motorcycle trails that cross meadows (primarily in the high country of the Eldorado Forest) will be closed this year resulting from a lawsuit. The lawsuit is regarding the Eldorado Forest’s 2008 Decision designating roads and trails across the Forest. A Federal Court Judge ruled in May 2011 and again in February 2012 that the Forest Service failed to comply with the National Forest Management Act in 2008 when it designated “open for public motor vehicle use” portions of 42 routes that cross meadows. The Judge ordered the Forest Service to “set aside” the decision that designated these segments as open and to reconsider the decision. In addition, the Judge ordered that these 42 routes be closed until a Final Order is issued (likely in April or May) at which time, some portions of the routes may be open, but probably not the entirety of each route.

The Forest expects to start a supplemental Environmental Impact Statement (SEIS) shortly after the Judge’s final ruling in April or May – the Judge’s rule will help to clarify the scope of the environmental analysis.

We are working on getting the final word out to the public, although we also would like to have the Court’s final ruling, so that we know the full scope of what to tell the public. Hopefully this information helps.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lester Lubetkin
Recreation Officer
Eldorado National Forest
Phone: (530) 621-5213
Cell: (530) 651-4566
email: llubetkin@fs.fed.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Last edited by cmarjeep; 04-03-2012 at 02:55 PM.
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Old 04-03-2012, 02:54 PM   #221 (permalink)
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I know companies don't like getting involved in "political things", but if there is no Us(four wheelers, motorcyclists, etc) then there is no need for "them"(parts manufacturers, distributors, designers, etc.).

It would be nice to see some more companies step up to the plate to help us out. Like how Ruger is donating to the NRA.

In my opinion one huge organization representing all of us (wheelers, hunters, horse back riders, motorcyclists, and whomever else uses the forest service trails) would be much more powerful than the many little ones we have now chipping away at these issues.

One branch breaks easily, but many branches tied together are much stronger.
so, i know that this press release is about 3 weeks old, but, i found this, and as such, will be supporting them by buying there more.




BLUERIBBON COALITION, INC.
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

CYCLE GEAR DONATES TO KEEP TRAILS OPEN IN 2012

CONTACTS:

Don Amador, BRC - 925.625.6287
Dave Bertram, Cycle Gear - 707.747.5053 x112

DATE: March 20, 2012
BENICIA, CA (March 2, 2012) -- Cycle Gear, the country's largest retailer of motorcycle apparel and accessories, pledges $10,000 to the BlueRibbon Coalition in support of the organization's efforts to ensure continued access to public lands.

The donation highlights Cycle Gear's total fiscal commitment to the BRC Trail Access Fund for 2012. This is the 10th year in a row in which Cycle Gear matches club and rider donations -dollar for dollar- to the Fund (up to $10,000 per year).

Dave Bertram, 5-time ISDE gold medalist, two-time national off-road champion and CEO of Cycle Gear, states, "Trail riders continue to face unwarranted land closures and restrictions at state and federal OHV areas. Cycle Gear is proud of this grant program that supports BRC's efforts to successfully champion responsible motorized recreation on designated roads, trails, and areas."

"Today, the OHV community is confronted with an endless parade of frivolous eco-lawsuits, cancelled motorcycle events, and closures of historic single-track trails. The off-road business community must continue to support access groups that fight to protect our rights to enjoy public lands." Bertram said.

Don Amador, Western Representative for the BlueRibbon Coalition, said, "BRC would not be able to continue its work if it were not for generous donations such as this commitment from Cycle Gear whose support is greatly appreciated as it will help fund our access efforts in 2012."
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Old 04-03-2012, 03:02 PM   #222 (permalink)
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Still have question? Or, want to bitch?

I am easy to find via PM, email or phone....
Not the correct means of communication. All that will do is put out 1 fire, when in reality we have hundreds/thousands fires reading this thread.
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At this point, Dept of Justice and BRC went behind closed doors to negotiate with Center for Sierra Nevada Conservancy.
I cannot understand why there was negotiations when SNC was present. THEY LIE!
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Old 04-03-2012, 03:09 PM   #223 (permalink)
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Many thanks for ALL you do John!!

Spending your personal time to further provide assistance and detailed clarification of issues involved in this matter is going way beyond the call of duty!!!

Obviously, this fact and the clarification provided is still lost on some.

I apologize for requesting your input in this thread, had no idea it would become such a circus filled with a nearly complete lack of gratitude for the support we receive from you, CAL4, the BRC, AMA and many others.

Folks like you who provide their professional expertise and personal time tirelessly in defense of our diminishing access deserve more credit and respect than what has been extended here.
Actually, it is his job.
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Old 04-03-2012, 03:21 PM   #224 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmarjeep View Post
Here is the email I got from Lester of ElDo NF this morning:

At this time, it is likely that a number of 4WD trails and motorcycle trails that cross meadows (primarily in the high country of the Eldorado Forest) will be closed this year resulting from a lawsuit. The lawsuit is regarding the Eldorado Forest’s 2008 Decision designating roads and trails across the Forest. A Federal Court Judge ruled in May 2011 and again in February 2012 that the Forest Service failed to comply with the National Forest Management Act in 2008 when it designated “open for public motor vehicle use” portions of 42 routes that cross meadows. The Judge ordered the Forest Service to “set aside” the decision that designated these segments as open and to reconsider the decision. In addition, the Judge ordered that these 42 routes be closed until a Final Order is issued (likely in April or May) at which time, some portions of the routes may be open, but probably not the entirety of each route.

The Forest expects to start a supplemental Environmental Impact Statement (SEIS) shortly after the Judge’s final ruling in April or May – the Judge’s rule will help to clarify the scope of the environmental analysis.

We are working on getting the final word out to the public, although we also would like to have the Court’s final ruling, so that we know the full scope of what to tell the public. Hopefully this information helps.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lester Lubetkin
Recreation Officer
Eldorado National Forest
Phone: (530) 621-5213
Cell: (530) 651-4566
email: llubetkin@fs.fed.us
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Lester - Bebe here....

Is the Forest Service going to continue the fight? Are you going to appeal the Judges order?

bebehumr at gmail dot com
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Old 04-03-2012, 03:27 PM   #225 (permalink)
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my question is..... if we know they are going after water crossings, why don't we beat them to the punch and try and take their argument away and build some of the log bridges and stuff to start with BEFORE they have a chance to use it against us?

Why don't we go to the trails that arn't closed yet and start this process before they tell us?

the .org's have to know what game plans they are using against us.... why are we waiting for them to make the rounds and then responding? why don't we identify the issues before them and solve them so they have nothing to argue?

or is it against the rules to build a log bridge before there is a court order?
I like your thinking. This is why I'm spending the gas money to get to Cadillac Hill on June 9th to be part of FOTR efforts to repair the area.

I would be willing to spend the gas money to help on other trails too.

One could know everything about the lawsuit, current decisions made, what FS is planning. But that does not mean I know what the next step as a user of the trails should do. For that I need help from those that know.

I understand that some don't like Pirate4x4 as people tend to stir the pot. But as a person in the know, just ignore those post. i.e don't reply to a question that you feel is out of place. The land use forum is a place to have civil discussion on the issues.
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